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Several Layers of Controversy

So i just noticed this… i’m not sure when this happened but i want to unpack it. First- what happened– I rezed on the island because Amy altered us to the controversy some artworks for Stephen Venkman so we could have a discussion about his artworks that were disallowed at SL5B. Then Stephen came and made them look better because i did a really half-assed job of it and added a landmark giver to send you to his sim. THEN…. some one ( Obscured Quandry clearly someone’s alt) put up a kind of cage around the work with the words “wake up” over it and
lots of little words that speak of various crises around the world like
the word up close
Food shortages and protesters disappearing, and other kinds of human rights violations and conflicts. I moved Venkman’s artworks up out of the way to take some un-obscured pictures of them so you could see them and then put them back down how it was:


Venkman
back how it was

Ok so this is scandal on top of scandal- you have the suppression of Venkman’s work by Linden Labs which is debatable and something i think we should debate some…. BUT ALSO… obviously “Obscured Quandry” wants to say that this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot and that in the “big picture” there are more important things that maybe people should be protesting or boycotting. So there’s a conflict.

But then…. to me– there is the way that Obscured Quandry choose to make this point- what they did obscured Stephen Venkman’s artwork, and generally speaking I think that is not cool. They could have done this in some other way that let the images stand as they were…. But you could also say that this is not such a big deal because you can find the same pictures on Venkman’s sim and all over the internet because of all the hubbub over them.

But to me there is one other aspect that stands out most: this person did something very aggressive by obscuring someone else’s work but they choose to do it with an alt instead of their real avatar… that to me is kinda chickenshit, isn’t it? I mean– come on!– you feel that strongly, have the guts to say it loud and proud and take the heat from other people who are going to disagree with you, the “real” you… whoever you are.

I think there are always “larger” injustices than the ones that we choose to pay attention to… i kinda think everyone has to pick the battles that they feel most strongly about- for some its global human rights for some its “local” community censorship. I’m not sure i feel I have anywhere to stand from where i can really pass judgement on this one. I make my living designing websites and teaching others to do the same and I choose to spend all my spare time painting portraits of furries talking about art on the internet… I’m no Mother Teresa.

Posted by jvanb on Wednesday, June 25th, 2008 at 1:12 am.

25 Responses to “Several Layers of Controversy”

Why am I not surprised that this alt would stoop to this level to garner attention?

It’s pretty disrespectful to infringe one’s opinion on another’s work in a place that one would consider a decent place to exhibit.

I’d have to say i won’t be offering up Brooklyn is watching to anyone due to the fact you don’t know if your stuff will be slandered and messed with or not.

Yes there are huge issues out in the big, and getting much smaller world. If they are so concerned about them, perhaps that is where they should focus their energy, instead of harassing me.

Oh well, I guess I can thank them again for the attention they draw to my exhibit and making themselves look like artholes!(was on the alts profile).

Left by venk on June 25th, 2008

Such as things stand, I think I could name maybe 100mio established artists who wouldn’t be able to participate in this corporate lag festival - obvious ones like Sally Mann for instance. If I was king of LL of course I would think it was super cool if someone like Jeff Koons were to decorate an entire company sim with his puppies and made in heaven stuff; But I’m not, so why should I care whether they have poor taste or not?

It would have been much more interesting to address the cultural mechanisms that lie behind this controversy, than the above family vacation snapshots. I even think we touched on some subjects that might be relevant to this in the Injustice post from a few days back.

Left by Ichibot Nishi on June 25th, 2008

[...] Several Layers of Controversy …about his artworks that were disallowed at SL5B. Then Stephen came and made them look better because i did a really half-assed job of it and… [...]

Left by Several Layers of Controversy at A Better Half on June 25th, 2008

Update: I added another version of Venkman’s images so everyone can see them un-obscured so we can have a discussion about them and the issues they raise. I also had a brief conversation with the mysterious Obscured Quandry who claimed not to have anything to do with arthole and would not reveal his or her “real” identity . Thinking about it more there are three ways to think about what he or she did here…1) as art — and to me its totally ham-handed — imagine if instead of doing this they’d just put next to these images, an image of one of the human rights issues the words mention just sitting there as a subtle reminder of a larger context… to me that would have been better as art. 2) as protest or political action — and judged by this criterion i think its totally ineffectual– it just royally pisses off anyone who doesn’t already agree, it persuades no one 3) as an action with the context of a community here at BIW– and on this front its just a total dick move IMHO and the same point could have been made without obscuring another artist’s work.

But… lets talk a little about the original issue OQ informs me that some people out there in SL have compared the suppression of Stephen Venkman’s work to censorship by the nazi’s including quoting the famous poem “first they came” by Martin Niemöller and saying by implication that we (the SL community) needs to speak out against the suppression of Stephen Venkman’s images and by extension the suppression of adults in second life engaging in a fantasy of being parents and children. I’d really love to hear what the people reading this blog think about this issue. To me this is a combination of two things. ONE, its LL having no faith in the audience– their reasoning is that the images could be ‘twisted’ by someone out there in the larger culture and seen in some way as child-porn. But really ANYTHING could be twisted into something untoward if that is the standard. so… TWO LL couldn’t suppress everyting- so here its LL being lazy and figuring that in this case, because the imagery depicted is of something that only a minority of residents care about they can suppress it without consequence and that is easier than trying to defend it were it to be ‘twisted’ — and actually in this way i kinda think that poem does apply in principal- that is that if authorities are unopposed in suppressing speech when its something that only a minority cares about, they may feel emboldened to try it with something bigger later. As a friend of the furry fandom, another group of people who are often misunderstood i am sympathetic to what (I think) Venkman is doing with this work which is trying to make affirmative artwork about a complex and potentially misunderstood minority subcultural activity.

Now its my personal bias that leads me to find art like his interesting. And yes, i know that censorship is not in the same league of misconduct as rounding people up and killing them, so you could make the case that talking about that poem in this context is hyperbolic, but the application of the underlying principal is what i’m talking about. Also… really you could kind of put the same sign over this blog and this whole project.. i mean here we all are talking about this stuff when there are clearly more important things out there… this (art, communication, community, technology) just happens to be what i care about- it must be what you care about to cause you’re reading this. OK, i’ll shut up again- what do the rest of you think?

Left by jvanb on June 25th, 2008

There is a notecard explaining the “Bigger Picture” I left at BIW, which can be received by clicking the piece. Jay asked me to post it here, but I’m going to try and merge it with a brief discussion I had with Jay earlier today.

Who I am is unimportant really, it is the message and point that I was trying to make and some of the reasoning behind why I did it in this manner. As Ichibot Nishi has said, it is the cultural mechanisms that are being looked at, not the speaker.

To summarise, this is my response to an issue which has been utterly blown out of proportion. Whilst it is very sad and regrettable that Linden Labs are pressurised by external legal matters (that in themselves constitute a threat to how Second Life operates), the levels of hysteria that have followed have been ridiculous.
This has gone to the point that people are rewording poems about Nazi atrocities involving the deaths of actual people, changing them to furries and goreans. At the same time they seek to clothe themselves in the mantle of those people who have resisted actual oppression, be it the black civil rights movement, the suffragettes, Tibetans. The suggestion is that there is a direct comparison between these things. People completely lost their perspective. Anyone who called for perspective or criticised the hysteria was themselves jumped upon.

My point is that people are getting worked up about freedom of expression and censorship, but seeing through all the real issues that need the artistic community to comment on, in order to focus on an instance which is really a non-issue. The Lindens set out particular rules for their own party on their own estate - it is not a matter of civil liberties being trampled on. My own work is not allowed there, because it has “adult subject matter”. I respect the decision of Linden Labs, I disagree with it strongly, but I am going to keep some perspective.

The suggestion was made that there were more subtle ways to do this that would receive “admiration”. I’m not aiming for admiration, nor particularly attempting to garner attention as Mr Venkman suggests. If I wanted those, I’d probably be doing some fluffy piece at SL5B. I think the alternate ways Jay suggested would not have had the same impact, nor made the same impression. I’ve already received a number of very complimentary offline IMs, so I feel the piece is making the point effectively.

To address a number of points in the comments, this isn’t aimed at Mr Venkman, who is well thought of by many people. His images were chosen to be representative of the issue and I responded to that. The issue. His work is still visible, both at BIW and on Flickr, just in this instance you have to look past the pesky real world issues of censorship and the rights of children to see the ‘controversy’. Additionally there have been a number of instances of works interacting with each other, or being added to, at BIW, so I don’t think what I have done is especially different.

I’m also not associated with Brooklyn is Watching, Arthole, Illusions Masks or Grendel’s children or anything else that might appear in my picks. I’m just a person expressing an opinion.

You might also wish to review the work of Chris Morris, a satirist, who did a work of genius on the subject at the core of this, a number of years ago on a programme called “Brass Eye”.

Left by Obscured Quandry on June 25th, 2008

Has LL banned this guy?

Left by Ichibot Nishi on June 25th, 2008

no, not banned from SL - but banned from SL5B - which is an area that LL is pouring tons of money and attention into…. so i think it counts as “suppression” not “censorship” strictly speaking. Its like saying “you can be on the sidelines but not in the parade” I suppose? is that a good analogy? I think if his work was actually pornographic no body would bat an eye about it being kicked out.. its just that its really pretty unobjectionable imagery in most people’s minds, and so therefore people feel that its really the behavior of pretending to be children and parents that is what LL is trying to sweep under the rug during the birthday celebration.

Left by jvanb on June 25th, 2008

I agree with your sentiment Jay; but LL isn’t a government and the event is obviously a PR stunt, so of course they must have some idea and desire of controlling how they come off.

← Godwin’s law

And Obscured Quandry what I said was, that I thought it would have been much more interesting had the original pictures examined the cultural mechanisms behind all of this furore. They are left in the sim as objects of art, all I did was submit constructive criticism.

They leave me blank and I guess that’s a point in itself.

Left by Ichibot Nishi on June 25th, 2008

I resent Stephen Venkman or anyone else mentioning mine and Neb’s gallery Arthole, or insinuating that I or any of its members are responsible for this. I made my own opinions very clear on Flickr last week, I have no reason to say it again anonymously. SL is a large community and as such there are many varying opinions on this subject. I am glad to see someone else is challenging this overblown issue, albeit anonymously.

I am really quite shocked that Jay considers these snapshots to be art and why he is is defending them so vehemently is a mystery. The “art” scene in SL is dominated by cheap, tacky, over-Photoshopped avatar shots, totally flat and uninspiring and not making any imaginative use of the tools provided. BiW has the potential to be about championing and encouraging talent and originality, a serious way to display and critique innovative art. It will be a tragedy if the project loses its integrity.

P.S - Yes Jay, as you already suspected, it was me who did the ‘Brooklyn is Wanking’ sign which may have led you to believe I was responsible for this. But there is a big difference, the altered sign was intended as a light-hearted prank and not an attack, and you all seemed to find it quite funny at the time. But like I said already, my opinions on the Venkman thing are well known and I had nothing to do with this stunt.

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 25th, 2008

Hey Arahan– i did think Brooklyn is Wanking was funny! and I would have left it a while longer but Boris returned it immediately… so i was glad we got good pictures.. I tell everyone about it when i introduce people to the project in the gallery… now that i know it was you, i’ll give you credit when i talk about it.

Putting something like that over the top of our sign is funny because its just our big dumb sign and it belongs to the project and its always there- but putting something literally over some other artist’s art on purpose to pick a fight with it.. i think is different– don’t you think? The fight totally could have been picked, the point made, etc. without obscuring the other work. Do you disagree?

Now as for me considering the images to be art…. well to me the term “art” is categorical not qualitative so just saying its art is not saying i think its good art. I think most of what i wrote up there was speaking in sympathy for the idea that it should not be suppressed because of its content, and in sympathy for the idea of wanting to represent in an affirmative way, a social practice that many people consider deviant — you could say that the “art” here is his whole virtual life including virtual children and the relationships therein etc. I’m not sure Mr Venkman thinks of it this way… We could (and should) have a whole other discussion on the merits or lack of merits of these images as images hackney or not and whatever… and don’t EVEN say this project is going to loose its integrity because we spend some time talking about this.. i mean… i’m sure we’ll spend some time talking about a giant photoshopped penis image that seems to have materialized behind our tower too… the integrity (i hope) is in the honesty and lively debate that we have about whatever we all feel is interesting to talk about at that moment and the intelligence of the participants .. a lively debate that i’m very glad you Arahan, and you Ichibot, have added your intelligence to in both through words and virtual objects and images. Really i’m kinda dying to see what the hell Don and Boris will say about all this in the podcast we’re recording tonight, and to see what brooklyn art fans say this weekend when they come to the gallery and look at it. So much of the discussion has been so…SL inside baseball and part of what BIW is about is getting some more cross chatter between SL and RL

Left by jvanb on June 25th, 2008

Here is my two penny’s (should be either pennies or cents) on the matter.

“no, not banned from SL - but banned from SL5B - which is an area that LL is pouring tons of money and attention into…. so i think it counts as “suppression” not “censorship” strictly speaking. Its like saying “you can be on the sidelines but not in the parade” I suppose? is that a good analogy? I think if his work was actually pornographic no body would bat an eye about it being kicked out.. its just that its really pretty unobjectionable imagery in most people’s minds, and so therefore people feel that its really the behavior of pretending to be children and parents that is what LL is trying to sweep under the rug during the birthday celebration.”

No, certain PICTURES he did are banned from SL5B, he still has a plot at one of the SL5B sims. He is also (according to LL wiki) still a member of the Art Exhibits Team (,) though I doubt it. Also there is a lot of stuff that is pretty unobjectionable imagery that is being censored yet we are suppose to care about this one issue. (?) Also (delete) If he stood by his convictions he would have abandoned his plot or just continued to put up the pictures until LL took them down.

Oh since he was a member of the Art Exhibits Team I would like to know why there wasn’t any mature sims and why oh why didn’t he fight for people who wanted to create art that was on the edge to have access to mature plots. I know LL was really being a bitch about this being a PG only event yet I didn’t hear the outcry over that like this issue did.

It seems the world revolves around Stephen Venkman and the so - called freedom fighters.

If you wanna talk about censorship go talk to Cheen Pitney about last year at Burning Life, go talk to Arahan Cl a veau about his Super Fun Happy Club installation and go talk to Ichibot Nichi about his FN installation. Those are the topics that have alot of credit because the people behind them didn’t create this stupid and unnecessary hysteria about a child issue. If Venkman had rall ied along with the other people around SL5B who were in the same boat as him, ya know the bigger picture , then it might have been a noble quest.

By the way there are loads of builds that feature children so how is LL sweeping them under the rug? You can see the list here. There are 4 builds that feature children.

So instead of whining about this , why doesn’t Venkman just go to LL and as nice as possible ask them to discuss it and just don’t let up. But no , your friends rally together and write a nice letter that might get ignored igroned. You never know the Lindens who are running the show just might not like Venkman s ince I’m hearing that some people have pictures up with adults and children together on their builds.

I can understand that LL wants to cover its ass with the damaging German news report last year!! DON’T take this out of context, as an example , lets say they let a person who has a picture of himself and his daughter in SL, just a normal family picture display at SL5B. But then the person turns out to be having sex with doing the daughter and not only do the SL press find out but the RL media finds out. It would be that damaging German news report all over again.

Kthanxbai

Much Love

Klink

Left by Klink on June 25th, 2008

grrr why I can’t I edit this comment I posted

Left by Klink on June 25th, 2008

spelling and grammer I want to correct I posted the corrections I was making to it

Left by Klink on June 25th, 2008

Just a couple of points I’d like to make.

First:
Artists who have put things on display at BIW have messed with each other’s artwork ever since the project began. Some of it has been good-natured, some a bit more sarcastic and irreverent, but nobody has really raised a cry about it until now. Why is Mr. Venkman’s work so sacred? I have nothing against him personally, but why should he receive special treatment?

No disrespect, Stephen, but BIW has always been a pretty tough crowd. The critics don’t go easy on the art, the artists don’t go easy on each other. And that’s the way it should be. If you’re really going to be an artist, you had better be prepared to run into some really brutal criticism at times, and if you can’t deal with it, take up something else. You have to have the balls to withstand the negative feedback, because no matter how many fans you have, your work won’t appeal to everyone and that’s the way it is.

Second:
I know that a lot of people think one of the “Artholes” is to blame for putting that thing over Venkman’s pictures, but in the case of Arahan & me, at least, when we have something to say we fucking say it. Ara said to me today, while we were discussing the subject, “We have big fat mouths.” Yes, yes we do. Anyone who knows us would agree. :P

Left by nebulosus.severine on June 26th, 2008

To answer your points Jay, yes I think it was an aggressive act and it is not the way I would have done it. But let’s not get this out of perspective, there is nothing sacred about these images, Stephen Venkman, his wife and children are all adults and this fuss over SL5B is about adults having their playtime interrupted.

Please note that Stephen Venkman has never so much as glanced at the BiW project before this week. Perhaps the prospect of having his snapshots critiqued as serious art was intimidating, I can’t say I blame him.

You want to talk about being “chickenshit” Jay, then consider how many people have given an opposing opinion on the SL5B kiddie avatar issue, or commented here even. There are not many who would do that because speaking your mind and going against the majority does not gain you popularity points.

Oh yes and the giant Photoshopped penis looks rather beautiful floating behind the tower, which is itself rather phallic. I happen to think penises can be very attractive, even Michelangelo’s David had one you know.

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 26th, 2008

Arahan, it was beautifully silly and i was sad that it was gone when i went to talk about it on the podcast, but oh well — i hadn’t thought about the tower’s phallic-ness but of course you are quite correct.

There is nothing sacred about Venkman’s work certainly but Nebulosus, I do think this is different just because someone actually obscured someone else’s work- I don’t think thats happened before in such a deliberately aggressive ad confrontational way and certainly not by someone hiding behind the anonymity of an Alt. I call upon the mysterious Obscured Quandry to reveal your true identity and pay whatever social cost you must for speaking your mind if you really feel so strongly about it.

Arahan- in response to what you were writing there… is SL such a politically correct place that its that hard to go against the grain of popular opinion? I wouldn’t have thought so, but I am not living my second life to the same extent that some are– i am and may always be a little bit of an outsider.

Oh, and Neb- about your comments on BIW being a tough place- thank you– i’m really happy that we’re kind of developing a culture here - that was what i hoped would happen.

I think this post is a good little argument- Does anyone want to address the larger question of the rightness or wrongness of LL’s policy that started this off?

AND KLINK– could you please (or someone) post links to info about the previous censorship scandals you mentioned just to help out anyone who is reading this and wants some context? –oh, and one more thing Klink- your work in the sky got another set of eyes on it in the podcast we recorded last night with some very different opinions - i’ll post it sometime friday- as soon as i can.

Left by jvanb on June 26th, 2008

Oh the wang went? Shame.

“… is SL such a politically correct place that its that hard to go against the grain of popular opinion?”

No, not necessarily “politically correct” Jay, but the vast majority of people use SL as an escape and create a very cosy, fantasy world where reality and truth are not welcome.

“Does anyone want to address the larger question of the rightness or wrongness of LL’s policy that started this off?”

Nope, not me, I’m sick of the whole stupid subject. Part of the reason I deleted my Flickr account last week was due to the level of hysteria whipped up by this flacid issue and the general insincerity of many of the SL folks there.

I’m saying nothing more on this, I’ve wasted too much time and energy on it already. I hope you do find other people to talk about it sensibly Jay but I wouldn’t hold your breath.

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 26th, 2008

Headlines and the ignorance of those around us are the most banal of raw materials for making art. Yes, we have a responsibility as artists, as virtual world participants, and as real world citizens to inform ourselves about the suffering of others, and to take political action. But the giant objects in the sim about headlines and censorship and ignorance, both in their presentation and their substance, strike me as being more about the speakers’ staking of territory than about a real call to action, or even awareness for that matter. (Though I thought Arahan’s gallows-as-soapbox was clever.) And my inner armchair psychologist suspects that the caviling about us using SL as an escape from reality and from the suffering in the real world speaks volumes about the anxiety of the complainers about their own disengagement.

This won’t lead to more interesting art. As artists we should refract as well as reflect; headlines as art is even duller than photoshopped avatars.

It will be interesting to see what is created in the sim in light of this debate. Thanks for the opportunity to participate.

Left by Ford Heberle on June 26th, 2008

What a great opportunity to mention that visitors to BiW can purchase Ford Heberle’s ‘Sycophant/Parvenu’ for the bargain price of L$100*!

And while you’re there why not treat yourself to a sumptuous luxury French vanilla ELSE Divan at the knock-down price of only L$250!

HURRY WHOLE STOCKS LAST!!!

*frame included

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 26th, 2008

Ah, the whiff of commerce, anathema to the righteous.

Arahan, I followed the murdered Iranian gay teen story closely in 2005. I read a lot of RL news. I have RL opinions. I argue at RL cocktail parties. I write RL letters to RL publications. I protest in RL streets. I do reduced-price and pro-bono work for RL organizations and RL people I admire. I donate RL money to RL causes. I am a RL citizen and I vote in RL elections.

I believe that selling art and other products of the creative mind does not damn one to moral bankruptcy. Commercial exchange, like intellectual exchange, is a basic human trait, as any RL anthropologist will attest.

And, although any poststructuralist will tell you all artistic production is inherently political, I do not believe that all political production is good art.

Left by Ford Heberle on June 26th, 2008

Ford, I also followed the murdered Iranian gay teen story closely in 2005. I read a lot of RL news. I have RL opinions. I write RL letters to RL publications. I protest in RL streets. I donate RL money to RL causes. I am a RL citizen and I vote in RL elections.(I don’t do work for Bono but he’s a bit of a knob and U2 are shite).

But I don’t do any of it for attention as you so offensively suggest.

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 26th, 2008

Dear Arahan,

Perhaps I went too far in ascribing attention-seeking as your motive, it’s easy for me to jump to that conclusion when I’ve seen it so many times before from others. The intersection of politics and art is always so tricky, and they are both so important, I think we may agree on that.

I think U2 are shite too, even if in an unholy alliance Bono convinced Jesse Helms to give a shit for AIDS-stricken African children in Jesus’ name.

And I liked your pink outfit and your balloons. Maybe we can be friends?

Regards,

Ford

Left by Ford Heberle on June 26th, 2008

Ford, I would be the first to admit my fucking disengagement from (and disenchantment with) the world.

I usually just skim the surface of RL news because when I think too much about the state of things in the RL world I cannot fucking sleep at night.

I don’t attend RL cocktail parties because I am not friends with the kind of people who go to cocktail parties.

I work for RL corporate retail, and thus I don’t have RL money to donate to RL organizations or causes, other than dropping my change into canisters occasionally.

I am a bit too introverted, agoraphobic, and chickenshit to participate in RL protests, which is why I channel my opinions into art. Perhaps it isn’t the most effective way to bring about social change but at least I do SOMETHING.

I am a RL citizen who realizes the futility of RL elections; I vote, though I don’t have any faith in the system.

I am neither a sycophant nor a parvenu. I may not be as formally educated as other people, I may not have the pedigree as some artists, but I consider my work to be and straightforward and genuine whether it is considered “good” or “bad.”

Left by nebulosus.severine on June 27th, 2008

Nebulosus,

My rant yesterday about my real world bona fides was intended to support (or to be more honest, defend) my assertion that I don’t find overtly political discourse in art compelling (eg your giant censorship billboard on the tower). I think it quickly devolves into competing posters for morality, efforts to shame the viewer’s ignorance, and thus we have our current debate, and a less interesting place to visit.

Not to mention the loss of Amy Freelunch, BiW’s finest critic, as a result.

I’m not suggesting that politics has no place in art, by any stretch of the imagination. Your piece “I’m Sorry Dad” is a subtle and moving presentation of the politics of family; it makes me so fucking lonely, and you take, in my opinion, real emotional risks with it. Not that this necessarily matters to you, but I think it is brave and I believe in you as an artist and as a person because of it. I want more stuff like that here. You have all the pedigree anyone could need.

As you yourself pointed out, “The critics don’t go easy on the art, the artists don’t go easy on each other. And that’s the way it should be.”

Anyway I hope to see you around and maybe talk more sometime.

Ford

Left by Ford Heberle on June 27th, 2008

“I liked your pink outfit and your balloons. Maybe we can be friends?”

Left by Ford Heberle on June 26th, 2008

Thank you Ford and yes OK then, I am feeling less anal now. Besides it is my third birthday in SL today so I should stop being such a grumpy ponce or nobody will buy me cake.

See you…

Left by Arahan Claveau on June 28th, 2008

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