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Podcast #5 Not perfect grammar, always perfect timing »

Podcast Number 4

Is Now up-you can get it from Blip here or download it directly here also it should be available through itunes in just a little while once apple finds it or you can also get it from feedburner.

In this our fourth week we have our technical problems more under control and we have RULES! – the three minutes in heaven rule applies and keeps the discussion clipping along.

BIW is featured in the Linden Booth at Virtual Worlds2008 and we talk about the aftermath of the art fairs.

Participants: Boris Kizelshteyn, Catherine Garnier, Jay Van Buren, Joost Halbertsma, Amy Wilson, Matt Shaproff, Jeremy Pierce, DC Spensley, Strawberry Holiday. 

Artists discussed include: Ichibot Nishi, Exosius Woolley, Sunn Thunders, Juria Yoshikawa, Wednesday Grim, WhoFliesWithTheWInd Writer, Gene Jacobs, Nebulosus Severine, DanCoyote, Cheen Pitney, Selavy Oh

>Post comments to this post to let us know what you think.…..

…and the big list of stuff we were supposed to talk about (we only made it through half of it starting at the bottom) is here.

Posted by jvanb on Saturday, April 5th, 2008 at 4:07 am.

14 Responses to “Podcast Number 4”

I think “spensly” = “spensley”, just FYI.

Also, I think we should stick to our SL names just to be consistent. I have no objection to anyone knowing that “Amy Freelunch” = “Amy Wilson” but I just think it could be confusing if I’m referred to one on the blog and another on the podcast (and same goes for everyone else in the project).

Lastly, did DanCoyote post his statement yet tearing me a new one (re: the term “formalism” and the way it was hated on in the late 90s)? I don’t know if that’s going to be on this blog or another or what, and I want to see it!!! :)

Left by Amy Freelunch on April 5th, 2008

Best Compliment Ever -

“Nebulosus is a famous bad-girl artist in Second Life. She is incredibly gifted, sarcastic, and really really moody… This is a comment she left for Brooklyn Is Watching… And she’s gonna kill me.” — Dancoyote Antonelli

Left by nebulosus.severine on April 7th, 2008

Ichi and Neb’s work was misinterpreted, neither was a commentary on BIW. As far as I know they’re both rather enthusiastic about what you’re doing.

There’s a clue in the title about the nature of Ichi’s ‘Suburban Spring’. On a technical level it is impressive but then piece the components together and it is saying something more beyond what you called “college humour”.

I was quite disappointed you dismissed the piece and didn’t look a bit deeper.

Left by Arahan Claveau on April 7th, 2008

Oh, well we’ll have to look deeper! — what is the meaning that we missed?

Left by jvanb on April 7th, 2008

Someone (maybe Amy?) on the podcast made an observation about Second Life art having no substance beyond the surface aesthetics and I think that is very often true. But with ‘Suburban Spring’, Ichibot made a piece that definitely has more to it than what you have probably dismissed as just a cheap trick.

From a distance the scene looks fairly innocuous, until you’re invited to step past the border of the picket fence, which triggers a sequence of events. Immediately, you are surrounded by four walls and a ceiling and forced to confront the neon “FUCK YOU” emblazoned on the wall. At first I too presumed it was directed at me personally but then I noticed what else was going on.

Down the walls are falling hundreds of little human figures, what you initially referred to as “flies”. On the outside of the wall it says “(suicide)”. The liquid goo made up from the suicide victims is slowly rising over your feet. The cacophonous melody of sound playing adds to the feeling of anxiety and claustrophobia.

The piece quite cleverly forces you, literally, to experience a living hell. The figures tumbling to their deaths have found their way out, and you may want to escape but you can’t, until the timer ends and you are allowed to return to normality.

I think it is about the fear of becoming trapped in some sort of urban nightmare. Living a predictable, mediocre existence and struggling desperately to avoid becoming lost in the crowd. The “FUCK YOU”, is a (final) shout of defiance at the world.

Left by Arahan Claveau on April 7th, 2008

I seem to recall (and bear with me, I may be a little off in my recollection) that there was some sort of problem in viewing the piece at the moment when we were trying to see it and comment on it. I’m pretty sure the piece as a whole wasn’t rezzing at all on my side (I think all I could see was a grey cube) and that I was pretty dependent upon the running reportage of others to comment on it, but now I wonder if even what they were seeing was the “entire” piece or if perhaps part of it wasn’t rezzing for them either.

This is a huge problem with creating and interpreting art in SL. When you walk into a gallery in Chelsea, it’s pretty safe to assume that what you see is what you get unless there’s some long explanation that you get handed to tell you otherwise. But in SL, what you see may have no relation to what the artist actually created (which is different than the artist’s intention, which is a whole other can of worms). Obviously, when I looked at the piece and saw a grey cube, it was clear to me that I wasn’t seeing it as it was created. But if the others who were in the piece missed some textures or sounds only because the thing didn’t load up correctly, they as viewers would probably *not* realize this and have no reason to think they were seeing anything than the piece in full. (I should also point out that I’m not saying that something like this is the artist’s “fault” per se - I’d imagine it’s difficult if not impossible for an artist to take into consideration every kind of computer with every kind of internet connection and SL version looking at the work - but it is something that comes into play whether we like it or not.)

Having said all of that, I’m not sure I like the piece any more the way you have now described it. I’m all for shouts of defiance and escaping suburban hell, but what you’re telling me I would see inside the box sounds so over the top that I wonder if I would really be moved by it. I’m reminded a bit of the Todd Haynes’ film “Safe” which is also about the claustrophia and anxiety of suburbia, but is incredibly effective because it is so slow, quiet, and subtle. The horror and pain in that film is so well beneath the surface that it makes you desperate for it to erupt, only it never does.

So, in short - I have no idea. I will very definitely re-view the work again this week on my own, if not as part of the podcast (that’s up to Jay to decide), but those are my feelings just based on the description.

Left by Amy Freelunch on April 7th, 2008

The piece is not a trap, it’s a one minute lullaby with an acousmatic part as its focal point. The walls represent closure in much the same sense as Derrida talked about it. The subtle movement of the child’s room wallpaper and liquid floor suggests recursion. The neon sign is everyday semantics. The visual components form a stage, the sound is the body.

On another note, I don’t mind people putting flies and such on my things. I honestly do think that’s sort of the charm of the place.

Left by Ichibot Nishi on April 7th, 2008

just another correction: my work “tectonics II” talked about in the blog is not the white cube which you can enter. tectonics II is the intervention which makes the ground move and which was blogged by seddel cougar (http://brooklyniswatching.com/2008/03/30/this-project-is-so-cool-it-moves-the-earth/). the cube is part of “isometric structure”, and this work was apparently not functional (probably due to the change in the physics engine), since it is not meant to simply eject the avatar, but teleport it into another cube floating 50 m above. if you go there, use mouselook to walk in the cube …

Left by selavy on April 7th, 2008

A film-maker like Todd Haynes has the luxury of getting their message across spread over at least 90 minutes. In Second Life you are often forced to make a statement quickly in order to grab the attention of an audience who is usually in too much of a hurry to spend time deciphering the intent. Your 3 minute rule for instance, doesn’t allow for the “slow, quiet, and subtle” contemplation of anything left in the sim. If Ichi had tried to make the same point in a more subtle way I think it may have also been overlooked.

Regarding the technical issues. Sometimes, even the most basic artwork in Second Life is effected, a static, flat image for example, can often take a while to appear. But, this doesn’t mean that artists should avoid experimenting or using certain techniques, for many it will work smoothly. It’s the nature of the medium, everyone will have a different experience depending on their monitor, graphics card, sound card, processor, broadband connection, etc.

All a creator can do is optimise the scripting and/or other elements, so they will perform as well as possible with the least impact on performance.

I hope you do return and give it another chance. It is so rare to get any depth of feeling from a virtual artwork and I feel strongly that any effort by an artist to attempt to do so, whether successfully or not in your eyes, should be applauded.

I see Ichi has added his own explanation above, which is likely much more relevant than my interpretation.

Left by Arahan Claveau on April 7th, 2008

Alright, i’ve got several quick points to make here– What happened that made it so Amy couldn’t get her Avatar into the piece by Ichibot Nishi because that crazy Plato dude rezed some kind of big thing right on top of it.

And… the three minute format is about how we talk about the works, not about how much time we spend with them– there’s no time limit on how much time people can spend with a work at all.

Now to the meat of the debate– I really find myself with different opinions about Ichibot’s work. On the level of its… bare with me on this metaphor… “genus” I want to give it props — Like the idea of combining visuals, audio, interactivity, restricting the movement of the avatar temporarily, and having a profoundly different experience on the inside as on the outside, using a combination of abstractions and representational work…and using all those things toward one end, to make one point by creating a particular experience and evoking certain emotions– I think that is great, ambitious and to be lauded and I hope to see more things like this in the future– to me this is what i would call a good “trail head” as i said a few weeks ago about the pose-ball avatar sculpture —

But as for the “species” of this particular work — i really agree with some of Amy’s criticism, I loved the movie “safe” and its not so much that you can really compare movies and SL artworks, but just that you can think about how one work makes you feel something and think about what is lacking in another work - Looking at Ichibot’s work, I find myself wishing it was way less obvious and more subtle and more powerful. The “fuck you”…. i dont’t get it– i’m not sure if Arahan’s interpretation is right about it being about a (sub)urban nightmare — i grew up in the suburbs and I certainly felt like saying “fuck you” to that much in that world when i was young so i can appreciate the feeling, but.. really it still seems kinda silly.

Also, i don’t think any artist should ever feel “forced to make a statement quickly in order to grab the attention of an audience who is usually in too much of a hurry to spend time deciphering the intent.”

If you have something to say that takes time and an audience that is willing to wait and think and consider something carefully- then I think you just have to do it and try to figure out a way to get that audience in front of it.

I myself spent 4 years of my life making a series of abstract geometric paintings called “Meditations on Obiwan Kenobi” that I still believe are some wonderful paintings… but they never really found an audience– they were in a few group shows but… that was it. They were very subtle (and self-mocking but not at the same time– maybe this is like Ichi’s work?), — the kind of thing that most people would just walk right by and not see at all.. but I had to make them that way to make them say what i wanted to say… so i did that and I figure its my fault that i never got them in front of enough eyes that would appreciate them. I stopped not because they were unsuccessful commercially but because I changed, and It just wasn’t what i felt to say anymore.

I want our little show to help people connect the audience their work deserves– and sometimes we will not be that audience right away- but one thing i can tell you honestly is that we are all people who love art, and want appreciate it, and that’s why we’re doing this — so we’ll try to give things a second or third chance when asked to by thoughtful comments like the ones that have been on this post.

We’re also trying to be entertaining of course and have a good time. But the idea is that this is just part of a discussion that doesn’t stop at the podcast or the blog- We will always link people through to the works themselves and let the audience see these works for themselves so they can give them more time than we can and continue the discussion.

I’d like to thank everyone who’d commented here for being part of this discussion- i hope it keeps going on- I’m going to read some of these comments on the next podcast– and Ichibot- please link us to a SLURL of where people can see this work elsewhere once it disappears from BIW so that people who read this post in future days or weeks can see for themselves what the hell we are talking about.

Left by jvanb on April 9th, 2008

Since I am terribly vain, I have to add that the sign wasn’t intended to be viewed as a self-contained statement. It is only there to contrast with the much more complex sonic landscape. The sort of thing where ones mind shifts back and forth between the primitive and the complex. This is of course only the case if one wants it to.

Looking at the sign my reaction is “what the… ?”, it doesn’t give anything. This can be a quality and is also slightly humorous, at least I think so. Ultimately for a thing that to me is self-effacing to be interpreted as being aggressive does indicate something, ~ maybe.

I agree with all the sentiments about cheap tricks and “look at me” attention spam above. In my oppinion the thing that suffers the most from the technical issues, the GUI and virtual people in general is the attention to detail.

Sadly I can not post a slurl Jay, as no one have build a virtual museum in honour of me and I most certainly won’t do so myself.

Finally I would like to add, that the country I am from is practically one big suburb. The average function has been applied successfully.

Thank you for testing and commenting.

Left by Ichibot Nishi on April 9th, 2008

Thanks for replying Jay. The BIW project is really evolving and there’s a lot to see and experience, it’s encouraging to know how enthusiastic you are.

P.S. You can see (and hear) more of Ichibot’s work from 26th April when myself & Nebulosus launch a new gallery called ‘Arthole’. Here’s the SLurl - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kress/168/88/391

Left by Arahan Claveau on April 10th, 2008

*oh and the talk with DC was really interesting, would like to hear more.

Left by Arahan Claveau on April 10th, 2008

[...] Comments Amy Freelunch on Other thoughtsJuria on Other thoughtsArahan Claveau on Podcast Number 4Arahan Claveau on Podcast Number 4Ichibot Nishi on Podcast Number 4 « Other [...]

Left by Brooklyn is Watching » Blog Archive » BIW explored by Chugabug and Radar on SLPN in your Face on April 14th, 2008

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